Jansen - Mithras, oddly enough, has the same birthdate as Jesus, but some 600 years earlier! Not only that, but he was also born of a virgin, with a few shepherds present. Mithras, a traveling teacher and master, had 12 disciples as he performed miracles. Just like Jesus, Mithras was buried in a tomb, died, and after three days was resurrected and rose again! (It must be the way gods did things back then.)
Known as “the way,” “the Truth,” “the Light,” “the Redeemer,” “the Messiah,” “the Savior,” “the word,” “the Son of God,” and ”the Good Shepherd,” Mithras was sometimes pictured carrying a lamb on his shoulders. Sunday was sacred to the followers of Mithras and called it “the Lord’s Day”.
Mithraism hit Rome in the first century BC as the Mithraic cult fled Persia. Here it flourished as the Sun God Natalis Solis Invicti. The leader of this religion ruled from what is now Vatican hill, which is a place previously sacred to Mithras. This male leader was called Papa (which is how we get the word “Pope”). Books in honor of Mithras were called “Helio Biblia,” which translates to us as either “Sun Book” or “Holy Bible.”
... Horus was known as “the Way,” “the Fisher,” “the Truth,” “the Light,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the Son of Man,” “the Good Shepherd,” “the Lamb of God,” and “the Word.” He was also was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.” (It is worth noting here that Christos means anointed in Greek.) There was a trinity with Horus: Atum the Father and Ra the Holy Spirit. Add Horus and we have the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In the later years of Horus, he had 12 disciples known as Har-Khuttie. Horus had an enemy (originally this was also the dark side of Horus, or his other face). This evil enemy was “Set” or “Sata.”
via Merry Mithras one and all.
The Encyclopaedia Britannica reports that "The traditional customs connected with Christmas have developed from several sources as a result of the coincidence of the celebration of the birth of Christ with the pagan agricultural and solar observations at midwinter. In the Roman world the Saturnalia (December 17) was a time of merrymaking and exchange of gifts. December 25 was also regarded as the birth date of the Iranian mystery god Mithra, the Sun of Righteousness."
Colliers Encyclopedia agrees. Quote: "After the triumph of Constantine, the church at Rome assigned December 25 as the date for the celebration of the feast, possibly about A.D. 320 or 353. By the end of the fourth century the whole Christian world was celebrating Christmas on that day, with the exception of the Eastern churches, where it was celebrated on January 6. The choice of December 25 was probably influenced by the fact that on this day the Romans celebrated the Mithraic feast of the Sun-god (natalis solis invicti), and that the Saturnalia also came at this time."
Both encyclopedias plainly reveal that the source of the celebration of December 25 is the birthday of Mithra, the pagan sun god.
via toolong.com
Mithras had twelve disciples. This appears to be derived from some iconography in the mithraea where the twelve symbols of the zodiac are arrayed around the scene of Mithras killing the bull. The connection between twelve disciples and twelve signs of the zodiac is made in the book The Jesus Mysteries and by Acharya S (D.Murdock)
via skepticwiki
Also see: Religoustolerance.org, todayperhaps.com, simpletoremember.com, associatedcontent.com, truthbeknown, vexen.co.uk, etc. Christianity absorbed the beliefs, customs and rituals of other tribes in order to gain followers.
I've been thinking about the word KRST. What is the deal with anointing back in the day?
It seems that holy stones were frequently anointed with oil. Weird. This is from "Folk-lore in the Old Testament: studies in comparative religion ..., Volume 2, By Sir James George Frazer:
The theology of Mithraism was centred upon the dying/rising Mithra, emerging fully grown from the ‘virgin dawn’ or rock. The association of gods with rocks or stones is not surprising: fiery rocks falling from the sky (meteorites) and even sparks released by colliding stones would equally strike the simple mind as ‘evidence’ of a godly presence. Holy stones were anointed with oil. ... - jesusneverexisted
How did being born from a rock get mingled with birth from a 'virgin dawn' ? People were really confused back then, about a great many things.
Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock. - newadvent.org
Yeah but... Christ means "anointed one". And holy rocks were anointed with oil. And Mithras was born from a holy virgin rock cave.
Parallel: "Sipapu, a Hopi word, is a small hole or indentation in the floor of kivas used by the Ancient Pueblo Peoples and modern-day Puebloans. It symbolizes the portal through which their ancient ancestors first emerged to enter the present world."
Perhaps we have the words "O God", for God who is in the shape of an "O" or... as we like to call it these days, the Sun. ( see Psalm 84:9.)
34 comments:
Or perhaps we have the phrase for blasphemers to express incredulous exasperation.
And a happy Saturnalia!
Peace
Xeno - I'm a regular reader of this blog, and I love it. You seem to be a sharp guy. This, however, is bunk. Try to find an actual Mithraic scholar who thinks this. Actually, try to find a *primary* source on Mithras with any of these parallels. Not all - *any*.
Thanks for the observation! I did not research this one myself but found the post interesting and wanted see what reaction there is to it among the many brilliant minds visiting this neck of the web. I hope to have time one day to dig deeper.
Watched a vid called Unwrapping chritsmas talked a lot about this stuff. I don't know its credibility but here it is-
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/faith_and_spirituality/watch/v6458060T7cdmBbt
I dunno, I think most religious stuff is based on a bunch of fiction anyhow, I just would like to know all the possible versions, the flakey stuff is cool to know about, even if there is a good chance its not correct.
Peace
Gathering all of the possibilities is the best first step if you want the truth. My view is that people were doing the best they could at the time to explain observable phenomena, and that religion is based not on pure fantasy, but on distorted interpretations ( the game of telephone) of misunderstandings, such as the planets being messengers of the gods (angels) because they wander in the sky compared to the stars.
:) Like that game where you whisper a phrase into the ear of the person next to you and then that person does the same and so on until after so many retellings, it is almost unrecognizable as the original phrase. Faction, would be a better term I guess, lol.
Peace
There are alot of theories of religion on offer right now in cog psy especially. The old "history of religions" idea of major religions, particularly Christianity, borrowing from pagan cults died a while back though. Frazer's _Golden Bough_ and Graves _16 Crucified Saviors_ are riddled with errors and exaggerations, and this sort of pattern-seeking in ancient religous tradition is now referred to as "parallelomania". There is Persian Mithraism and Roman Mithraism. The earlier Persian form, for which we actually have very little written evidence, is hardly similar to Christianity at all. The later Roman form was a competitor of Christianity and alot of the evidence we have for it comes later than the Christian evidence. If anyone can find a *significant* parallel in any of the primary sources, I would be impressed. This stuff about 12 disciples, virgin births - none of it is in the primary sources. It is found in kooky non-specialist works and youtube videos, but has no historical basis.
The Mithras parallels are in a much worse boat than "may not be all as claimed". For people who have studied Mithraism historically, they are outright fabrications. What seven archangels are you even talking about? Genesis and Gilgamesh are obviously related in many ways. I would not deny this. Mosaic law is more clearly related to Hammurabi than any principals of Maat but I'd be interested to see the research. But of course, Old Testament folklore and mythology does not have that much in common with the Gospels, which are an entirely different genre and time period. See the work of David E. Aune and Richard Burridge on the gospels as ancient Greek Bioi. Genre is important even in individual pericopae and aphorisms. Hyperbole is a stock Semitic trade and the usage of exaggeration is to be expected. But errors and exaggeration in works claiming to be *historical* descriptions of ancient texts (Frazer, Graves, etc.) is not expected or acceptable. That is the point. We can't just make up lies about ancient religions (e.g. they borrowed everything from some earlier religion), no matter how much we dislike them, disbelieve them, or think they are false on other grounds.
Oh gosh - I can't believe you linked to Truth Be Known - Acharya S's website. That woman is the biggest quack ever and is one of the main people spreading these fabrications of parallels. She is not anywhere near an authority on these matters and her work is full of blatant falsehood.
Did you actually write:
"Yeah but… Christ means “anointed one”. And holy rocks were anointed with oil. And Mithras was born from a holy virgin rock cave."
Wow - this is really lame. There is nothing "virgin" or "holy" about the rock that Mithras was born from. The symbolism of Mithras birth has to do with showing that Mithras is greater than the cosmos. See the link I provided with an actual Mithraic specialist explaining the ancient iconography. The "anointed one" as a reference to the Messiah, is a Jewish concept that predates Roman Mithraism, not a Mithraic concept. This whole line above is the most muddled nonsense I have ever read and I don't think Acharya S would even touch it.
Quoting: "Mithras had twelve disciples. This appears to be derived from some iconography in the mithraea where the twelve symbols of the zodiac are arrayed around the scene of Mithras killing the bull. The connection between twelve disciples and twelve signs of the zodiac is made in the book The Jesus Mysteries and by Acharya S (D.Murdock)"
The Jesus Mysteries is a joke of a book. But anyway, the logic here is horrid. Firstly, of course the 12 signs of the Zodiac are found in iconographic depictions of Mithras. The Roman cult was really a ritual about the procession of the equinox. However, nowhere are the signs of the zodiac said to be FOLLOWERS of Mithras. This is utter rubbish. There are 12 eggs in my carton in my fridge. They are not, however, followers of the gallon of milk next to them. The 12 disciples are modeled on the 12 tribes of Israel. Scholars see Jesus' ministry as a eschatological restoration movement within Israel so this makes perfect sense. This has nothing to do with Mithraism.
I'm with you on this one Alex. I agree. I've found nothing about Mithra having 12 disciples. I agree as well that we create meaning too often where there is none. This is something human brains do. Close your eyes, lie down and chances are within 90 minutes you will start to hallucinate. We are primed to be constantly making connections. Sometimes there are real reasons for our connections. Other times, we are only dreaming. Some people dream of Jesus.
"There are 12 eggs in my carton in my fridge. They are not, however, followers of the gallon of milk next to them."
HA! LOL, That was great....Good stuff, cool discussion too.
Peace
Many sources? Websites? If you're talking scholarship, the parallels are not significant and no serious modern scholars postulate borrowing. Ancient cultures in the ancient world had all sorts of things in common - a basic understanding of honorable and shameful behavior, purity rites and rules, etc. We shouldn't be surprised to see all sorts of commonality. Commonality doesn't equate to borrowing though, and it certainly doesn't establish the directionality of it. For that, you'd actually have to make an argument and present evidence - not just notice similarity. Fatal flaw to Christian foundations? What are those? Of whom? A fundamentalist? Perhaps, but I'm not sure why that matters. Jesus spoke and taught predominantly in parables and proverbs - to modes of communication that are inherently non-literal. Each pericope must be interpreted separately and within its own context.
Again - they called Yahweh LORD too. It is a common title. This is the height of silliness.
Of course cultures merged different gods. 2nd Temple Judaism was not syncretistic when it came to pagan gods though. We ultimately have to judge each case on its own merits. Christianity is an outgrowth of Judaism and pretty much every element within Christianity, can be found in a rudimentary form within 2nd Temple Judaic literature.
Lord? Really? That is a title that was applied to man and god alike, all over the ancient world. There is nothing significant *at all* about this. Do you think that indicates borrowing? Yahweh was also called the LORD!
Xeno - you shouldn't really touch on religion if you are this uninformed.
Great source.....NOT!
LOL
Let me tell you a little something about history. It is done in primary sources, and then if you MUST deviate from a primary source (do you even know what that is?), you use the most rigorous academic scholarly sources - not silly debunker websites.
You have once again posted utter rubbish.
Here's your next challenge - now you can find a primary source that says DIONYSUS was born of a virgin, in a manger, etc. All of it - NONSENSE. I'll wait patiently for you to find the actual historical text. Your first clue to the fabrications of websites like this is that they don't point you in that direction!
Oh - btw - there is great evidence that Elvis is still alive. I just read about it in the Weekly World News!
People dream of Jesus, therefore let us make up lies about history.
Sorry - I can't join you in that. People dreaming is not a justification for promulgating fabrications and falsehoods.
Lol as well. Alex, wow, have you read the dead sea scrolls? What ancient languages can you read? Hebrew? Greek? I gave you a primary Mithras source, in English. Mithras was prayed to as Lord hundreds of years before Jesus. So many Lords, so many gods, planets, winds, the sun, the moon, all worshipped in earnest, but only one is the REAL one. Yours, right? ;-) I'm encouraging everyone to consider for a second that the whole idea of "gods" any gods, is the wishful thinking of our sometimes simple superstitious minds.
Lies, oh you mean archeological evidence that contradicts your dogma? Lol
Xeno - the ten commandments are not insignificant. They are simply a commonplace. Borrowing?!!! There is no reason to borrow! Almost every ancient culture everywhere knows you cannot have a peaceful society when there is an allowance for adultery, murder, theft, and Godlessness in general.
This is another common trait of people afflicted with parallelomania. They find commonality in things SO general and basic that they are simply expected to be cross-culturally ubiquitous.
More nonsense.
I haven't seen any archaeological evidence that contradicts anything. I've just seen you link to some of the most unscholarly and disreputable sources on the web. I provide you with actual historians who specialize in Mithraic studies. What do you give us? Acharya S, bullshitter extraordinaire. Great work.
Xeno - thanks for the big REVELATION. You have proven that there were other gods that were worshiped prior to Christianity.
I'm sure your readers are both shocked and enlightened.
On Xeno's UFO Timeline page, he writes: "Most people rely upon things they’ve heard somewhere (passed on rumors which get exaggerated) and thus, they end up believing hoaxes."
I could not think of a better way to describe what Xeno has fallen for in posting these lists of "pagan parallels" on his blog.
Alex, as with UFOs, you have to look at it on a case by case basis. Some of the pagan parallels are real. Not all. Even the Catholic encyclopedia agrees with me about the date for Christmas. I know this is hard for you. I'm sorry. You've spent years believing a myth and your defense mechanisms are going crazy right now. But take time, take a break from it. Let it sink in.
Xeno - it isn't hard for me at all. I'm embarrassed for you that you posted a bunch of rubbish. "Myth" doesn't scare me. There is much in the Bible that is myth. Unfortunately, like a typical uninformed modern, you equate myth with falsehood. In fact, myth was a symbolic way of encoding the deepest truths for the ancients. If anyone needs to take time, it is you. You need to take time studying religion if you want to speak from an informed position, and not just spam trash websites.
You have not shown us any significant pagan parallels though.
Xeno - where are your primary sources for the parallels you posted for DIONYSUS ?
Show us you are not a fraud.
Do some research and give the primary sources for these claims. THAT is what I was asking for - not evidence that gods were called "LORD", a commonplace.
I see you have not yet produced any evidence for these. You continue to post more rubbish.
The "birthday" of Jesus Christ coming from the Sol Invicitus is not a significant pagan parallel? Huh??
All you do is insult and deny. Yawn.
The link provided does not change the fact that not a single historian, philosopher, or scribe who lived during the alleged time of Jesus even mentions him. Crowds and miracles would have been big news. Nice try though.
When did you last read the Codex Sinaiticus? I can't seem to find it in English.
A wild man comes from a man's rib as an act of a god in a detailed pagan story written long before Genesis and you believe this somehow supports the veracity of a much later and much different creation myth. Lol. You lost me there.
The only situation that would support your view is if there was an earlier original monotheistic source for the creation myth and the Epic of Gilgamesh was shown to be a distorted copy of that. No such thing exists, however.
Xeno wrote: The link provided does not change the fact that not a single historian, philosopher, or scribe who lived during the alleged time of Jesus even mentions him. Crowds and miracles would have been big news. Nice try though.
Alex: Since Jesus was just an itinerant preacher from Galilee, we wouldn't expect to hear much of him. In fact, it is very surprising that we have what we do. But NO serious scholar denies that we have traditions tracing back to his earliest followers. We have letters written within a generation by Paul. We have mention of him in Josephus - our most reliable Jewish historian of the time period, and Tacitus - our most reliable Roman historian of the time period.
On creation epics, I don't take them literally because they are clearly mythological. In fact, the Genesis creation story literally adapts other Creation myths and turns them on their head as a type of polemic. I have no problem with that.
So the only argument you might have is against a biblical literalist/fundamentalist, who will simply say "If something like this happened, we'd expect to see the stories disseminated orally."
So really, vs. the liberal or the fundamentalist Christian, you have no argument.
Also - where is the part about the rib in Gilgamesh? Can you quote it? I didn't see it.
Yes, the holidays and more were incorporated over time. The "more" includes beliefs that many Christians see as exclusively theirs. We disagree on which parts of the "more" but that is to be expected given the nature of faith and our inability to travel back in time to verify things. If I'd learned in Sunday school that Christianity was great because it took the best ideas from many different cultures and religions over the years, if my teachers were informed and honest about history, I'd have a different and more compassionate view of my former religion today. How can one story be the word of god, all others be wrong, but they are basically the same story? That teaching, that arrogance, is what gets me fired up.
Posting here, believe it or not, is a fairly efficient means by which I look into things. People with greater experience and knowledge than myself make an appearance, as you did, and I learn a good deal. I've become completely obsessed with researching this over the past few days, and I thank you for sparking my excitement about ancient myths and the history of religion.
I still don't understand how you can say both that pagan parallels are fraudulent and that you borrow dates, beliefs and rituals from pagans. By beliefs, I mean the dualist concept of heaven and hell, for example.
I too apologize for any rudeness on my part. I've enjoyed this lively exchange.
Xeno -
The benefits of online exchange that you reference are exactly the reason that I will dive into them every now and then. I find no better impetus for research than the excitement of a debate like this. The challenge is not to lose your cool when you strongly disagree, and chase your sparring partner away. Learning to disagree *strongly* while still maintaining a level of respect, and even kindness, has been a great challenge for me. But, when I've been able to do it, it has really paid off.
The specific pagan parallels you mention are fraudulent because these pagan deities simply did not do such things, as a matter of historical fact. The later church did indeed take over some of the festivals, rituals, and even personages from paganism, in specific cases (Dec. 25th as the birthday of Christ being one of them). These are also simply a matter of historical fact, and they have no bearing on the latter. If we think in terms of the UFO research community, we know that some people have legitimately had their integrity called into question. This does not tar the reputation of any other group of researchers though. Case by case is the only way to go.
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